Несколько лет назад я окончательно завязала с диетами благодаря интуитивному питанию. Одним из шагов на этом пути была группа с Владом Бухтояровым, где мы в тёплой доверительной атмосфере делились тем, что скрывалось за нашими непростыми отношениями с едой и учились внимательности к своему телу и своим чувствам.
Практикуя интуитивное питание сама, я уже не могла представить каких бы то ни было пищевых ограничений и в жизни своей дочери. Сейчас я совершенно не вмешиваюсь в её выбор продуктов, не удивляюсь, что в магазин её можно заманить, только пообещав брокколи или творог, что резиновые медведи и фрутеллы копятся в шкафу нераспакованные, что иногда она целый день ест только суп, а иногда только сушки, редко болеет и умеет прислушиваться к потребностям своего тела.
Частенько я говорю об этом с другими родителями, слышу, сколько тревоги вокруг «правильного» питания детей, поэтому очень рада была поговорить об этих тревогах с Владом.
Впервые опубликовано в журнале Мамин-Папин, октябрь 2018
Вокруг еды с самого детства у нас копится столько разных мифов, правил, ограничений, тревог. В книжке — одно, у врача — другое, подруга рассказала третье, блогер написал о десятом. Прислушаться к потребностям собственного тела оказывается не так-то просто, а тут ещё и детей как-то надо кормить!
Хорошая новость в том, что «кормить» никого не надо — сами поедят! Да ещё и замороченным взрослым подадут пример. Влад Бухтояров, специалист по интуитивному питанию и ДБТ-терапевт, ответил на самые частые вопросы родителей и рассказал, как создать ребёнку и себе разнообразную пищевую среду.
Влад, как это — интуитивное питание?
— Это такой подход к питанию, который предлагает переключаться с нормативности и рациональности, с того как «правильно» и как «надо», на умение слышать сигналы своего тела, на контакт с собой, со своими желаниями и потребностями.
Современному человеку приходится этому заново учиться?
— Есть знаменитое описание нормы от Эллин Сэттер: нормальное пищевое поведение — это когда человек ест то, что хочет, тогда, когда хочет, столько, сколько хочет, когда он голоден, останавливается, когда наелся. Как с этим спорить? Вот это норма. Она очень широкая, она очень разная. Чего, кто, как, сколько, какое? Для людей, которые живут в невротизированном мире взвешиваний, калорий, граммов, правил сочетания, органических продуктов, такие рамки — тоже стресс. Непонятно, на что опираться.
И интуитивное питание помогает к этой самой норме вернуться?
— Не столько вернуться, сколько поискать, где эта норма именно для меня, потому что она индивидуальна, она очень разная.
Есть ли люди, которым интуитивный подход к питанию не подходит?
— Да. Во-первых, это те, у кого есть выраженное расстройство пищевого поведения, скажем, анорексия. Там интуитивное питание должно быть частью комплексной программы.
Во-вторых, при выраженном эмоциогенном переедании, когда у человека значительные психологические трудности. Тогда интуитивно питаться сложно, нужно сначала разобраться с эмоциями, а потом уже говорить про питание.
В-третьих, интуитивное питание не подходит тем, кто не успевает жить осознанно. Мир, который бежит вперед и говорит: «Так, надо то и это, делай так, а так ещё лучше». Услышать свое и отличить его от навязанного семьей и обществом — это очень не простая работа.
А как насчет детей? Известны ли тебе случаи, когда ребенку интуитивное питание не пошло на пользу?
— Нет, но здесь ребенок очень зависим от родителей. Бывает, что у ребенка нет соответствующей пищевой среды, которую должны создать родители. Если у людей дома только доширак и батон с маслом и сыром, то, наверное, ребенок не сможет питаться интуитивно в таких условиях. Он скажет: «Я хочу яблоко и рыбу, и шоколадку», — а ему: «Нет, доширак и батон. Все».
Если у родителей есть свои проблемы с пищевым поведением, эти проблемы транслируются на детей очень рано. Есть исследования о том, мамины особенности пищевого поведения больше всего влияют на ребенка в возрасте от 0 до 6 месяцев. А от 6 месяцев до года, например, влияют папины и других значимых взрослых.
У ребенка есть очень сильные механизмы выживания. И если надо, он возьмет то, что ему надо. И если у ребенка есть устойчивость в плане отстаивания своих пищевых границ, он их будет отстаивать, даже если вокруг не очень здоровая среда.
А бывают по-настоящему серьезные проблемы с пищеварением или аллергии, при которых тоже нельзя позволить ребенку есть то, что он хочет?
— Это стоит учитывать как дополнительный ограничивающий фактор. Физиологические ограничения есть у каждого, но в рамках этих ограничений можно питаться интуитивно. В чем мне кажется важным интуитивный подход к питанию: он направляет фокус внимания с ограничений — с того, что нельзя, на возможности — на то, что можно. Потому что их на самом деле гораздо больше, чем может показаться. Те же овощи, фрукты, ягоды и прочее.
Моя знакомая в детстве как-то месяц жила с сестрой без родителей. Родители уехали в Сочи. А потом вернулись и привезли целый чемодан мандаринов. И дети буквально за час весь этот чемодан мандаринов съели. У них, конечно же, была сыпь, диатез, и они до сих пор не очень любят мандарины. Но это про что? Про то, что они соскучились и съели то, что им привезли родители? Про то, что им правда очень вкусно было есть эти мандарины, только что сорванные с дерева? Про что-то ещё?
Роль родителей иногда должна быть и ограничивающей. Их рациональная часть четче видит границы, прогнозирует и предупреждает о последствиях.
Ощущение, что создать эту свободную пищевую среду и обеспечить интуитивное питание ребенку могут скорее родители, которые сами отошли от диетических ограничений, или у них никогда не было расстройств пищевого поведения. Так ли это?
— Думаю, это связано скорее с тем, какой стиль отношений в семье вообще. И если это стиль, который допускает, что мы можем принимать отличия друг друга и с ними жить, то и ребенок может питаться интуитивно несмотря на тревогу взрослых насчёт их собственных макарон на ночь.
Давай представим, что папа или мама прониклись идеями интуитивного питания и решили попробовать. Раньше кормили ребенка по расписанию, завтрак-обед-ужин, правила, иногда конфликты на почве того, что ребенок не поел, или хочет что-то «не то». С чего им начать переходить на интуитивные рельсы?
— Здесь важно разделение ответственности. Обязанность родителя — создать разнообразную пищевую среду, а ребёнка — понять, голодный или нет, съесть, чего нужно, сколько нужно и вовремя остановиться.
Хорошо, когда регулярно, больше 4-5 раз в день, в доступе ребенка появляется разнообразная еда. Важно, чтобы у ребенка была возможность на эту среду влиять, чтобы среда была гибкой. Тогда ребенок говорит: «Я вот уже сейчас голодный». «Суп будет готов через 40 минут». И много вариантов: может, ребенок подождёт супа или сейчас перекусит, а потом поест суп не через час, а через полтора-два, разогретый.
Или ребенок говорит: «В гостях я попробовал такую вкусную грушу, хочу грушу», или «Хочу сливу». Обычно у них в доме не покупают сливы, или сейчас не сезон. И тогда с ребенком договариваются: «Сейчас не сезон. Мы не можем покупать сливу из Эквадора за 800 рублей килограмм», или купить, если могут себе это позволить. Важна гибкость этой системы.
Например, брать ребенка с собой в магазин?
— Да. У людей, живущих в диетических ограничениях, часто есть фантазия, что если ребенку разрешить, то он возьмет колу с чипсами, а еще конфеты и вафли. Но это не так. Если ребенок будет сам выбирать, он может еще где-то зависнуть, выбрать себе какую-то траву пожевать или пельменей, или заинтересуется морской капустой. Можно высказывать свои желания тому, кто идет за покупками, или, если есть такая возможность, вместе ходить за едой.
Важно здесь отметить, что интуитивное питание иногда идеализируется, как такая прекрасная система, в которой я помедитировал, понял, чего хочу, нажал волшебный кранчик, и тут же бац! и скатерть-самобранка у меня нарисовалась. Понятно, что у нас у всех есть ограничения: где мы живем, какой у нас финансовый уровень. Вот мы живем в приморском городе, где, черт возьми, нет свежей, неразмороженной рыбы. Как так? Я страдаю от этого.
В семье тоже эти ограничения есть. Если ребенок будет говорить про свои пожелания, это больше будет про интуитивность. Но не факт, что семья сможет все эти пожелания реализовать, это нормально.
Часто при переходе с четко отрегулированного на интуитивное возникает очень много тревоги и паники, потому что у детей возникает много экспериментов. Может быть этап экспериментирования, когда ребенок все пробует, смешивает, играет. А когда-то в отношении того, что попадает внутрь, дети — страшные консерваторы. И благодаря этому консерватизму, мы, кстати, выжили как вид, потому что непонятные корешки в рот не тащили.
Когда родители предлагают ребенку что-то новое, они должны понимать ограничения, в том числе вот эти биологические, эволюционные. Что не с первого раза еда понравится, возможно, не в таком виде, не в этот день.
А как разнообразие пищевой среды выглядит на деле? Например, мы дома, ребенок говорит: «Мама, я хочу есть». И я тогда спрашиваю, чего хочется? Или выкладываю на стол то, что есть? Или задаю конкретные вопросы: «Тебе хочется холодного или теплого? Хрустящего или мягкого?».
— Если ребенок пока не очень самостоятельный, то скорее всего, это вопросы. Можно начать с вопроса: «А насколько сильный голод?», ребенок может хотеть перекусить, а может хотеть серьезно поесть. И в том, и в другом случае спросить, чего именно хочется? Если ребенок точно не знает, предложить, что есть.
Можно рассказать про свой план: «Я как раз хотела начать готовить, но это придётся подождать, а можно перекусить бутербродом прямо сейчас». И как-то договариваться.
А можно ли от грудного молока сразу перейти к интуитивному питанию, то есть с самого младенчества приучить ребенка питаться интуитивно?
— Скорее всего именно так и происходило, пока люди не научились слушать врачей. Важно знать, что у ребенка наступит период ограничения и упрямства: «Это буду, а это нет», и важно ему это тоже разрешить. Потом может быть период поиска и период, когда ребенок будет учиться вообще большей самостоятельности в жизни — как себя организовывать. И с едой это может происходить: «Тут моя еда, я для себя купил это яблоко, положите и не трогайте».
Всё это связано с другими психологическими процессами в семье: что родители себе позволяют, как они свою жизнь устраивают, как строятся детско-родительские отношения. Все лучшее взрослым или все лучшее детям? И можно ли договариваться? Какая у ребенка есть степень влияния на все это? Какую помощь и поддержку тут получает ребенок?
Сколько стоит дать времени себе и ребенку на освоение интуитивного питания?
— Это зависит от того, насколько сильно семья подвержена влиянию диетических ограничений. Если сильно, то может потребоваться несколько лет. Часто такие люди сначала увлекаются, а потом у них происходит обратное — разочарование.
С детьми в этом смысле может быть проще, потому что если ребенок не сильно испорчен нарушением в питании от взрослых, то он ближе к своим ощущениям тела. Он быстро может сориентироваться и понять, что категорический запрет на сладкое, он не обоснован, глуп: «Мне его столько и не надо».
Это может повлиять на психологический климат в семье в целом. Диетические семьи иногда похожи на алкогольные, в которых все делают вид, что никто не знает, кто и что в семье употребляет. Например, в семье, где кто-то курит, говорят: «У нас никто не курит. Это запах из вентиляции от соседей». Со сладким и вообще с запретной едой, так же бывает: «Вообще у нас никто не ест такое. Правда, у мамы есть в шкафчике, и у папы есть…»
Есть же ещё и роль культуры. Что для нас показатель успешно выращенного ребенка? Это же хорошо накормленный ребенок?! Как с этим быть?
— У нас только сейчас начали вырастать первые поколения, которые жили без фактического голода. И этот опыт очень близкий, совсем недавний, свежий. И ценность еды как средства выживания, она до сих пор во многих семьях сохранилась. Если чья-то бабушка голодала в блокаду, то она реально может не понимать, это вы не будете доедать борщ, макароны и котлеты?! И договариваться может быть не просто. Но эти особенности культуры очень важно учитывать и понимать, чтобы знать, как они на нас могут влиять.
Можно удостовериться, что голод вряд ли уже будет. Или создавать запасы, если человеку с этим спокойно. Я вот понял, что у меня есть такая черта, мне хорошо и спокойно, когда у меня есть запасы.
А как быть с культурой насилия, замаскированной под заботу, когда ребенка пичкают едой, которую он сейчас не хочет, потому что о нем заботятся?
— Очень тонкий вопрос задаешь. Пока у нас культура насилия очень выражена в семьях, да и не только дома, и в детском саду, и в школе. Или в гостях вот говорят: «Не встанете из-за стола, пока не поедите». Почему это происходит? Кажется, это же легально, ты заботишься и делаешь добро. Но опять же, когда есть чувствительность к другому, и есть уважение к ребенку как к человеку, то невозможно уже не услышать ребенка. А дети все равно об этом сообщают.
Даже если дома ребенка слышат, он растет и видит, что в разных семьях всё по-разному, из телевизора и социальных сетей транслируется идея ограничений. Еда делится на полезную и вредную, брокколи можно много, а шоколада только чуть-чуть. Насколько я понимаю, это приводит к тому, что к пятому классу больше половины девочек сидит на диетах и считает, что с их телом что-то не так. Как помочь ребенку сохраниться в обилии информации?
— Да, к сожалению, нормативное давление общества есть, и в первую очередь на девочек, хотя и на мальчиков тоже сейчас растет это давление. Есть очень хорошие методики профилактики пищевого расстройства у детей, направленные на развитие критическое мышления. Детей спрашивают: «А когда вы слышите какую-то информацию про еду, вы обращаете внимание, кто и зачем ее говорит?». Например, бабушка, выросшая в ограничениях, говорит, что конфеты можно только после основной еды. Хорошо, мы ее уважаем, выслушиваем. У нее такой опыт, но у нас есть и другой опыт.
Или, например, девочкам 11-12 лет показывают в журнале образ конвенционально красивой женщины и спрашивают, как они думают, зачем это и почему? И девочки начинают рассуждать о том, что это журнал, который должен нравиться и продаваться. Да, все фотографии в нём отретушированы, позы моделей неестественные, а ещё он рекламирует очередную уникальную систему похудения. Важно спрашивать, как они к этому относятся, кому, как они считают, это выгодно? Это сильно меняет восприятие у детей, они начинают относиться и к рекламе, и к этой среде по-другому, более взвешенно и сбалансировано.
Интуитивное питание в целом скорее про сбалансированное отношение, соотношение власти и свободы, уважения друг к другу в семье, чем про то, al dente варить макароны или не варить вообще.
Да, ведь интуитивное питание важно в контексте. Оно же тесно связано с такими темами, как психотерапия, феминизм, секспросвет, практики осознанности?
— Да, очень. Интуитивное питание идеологически выросло в том числе из феминизма. Сюзи Орбах сделала очень заметной идею, что диета и ограничения — это одно из проявлений дискриминации, того, как общество хочет регулировать поведение женщин патриархального общества. Когда мы говорим о равенстве, взаимном уважении, об отличиях, разнообразии, то появляется уважение к индивидуальному выбору, который человеку не навязывают. «Все едят торт, а ты почему не ешь?». «Да я не люблю торты». Или наоборот все едят диетический десерт, приготовленный мамой, он из кураги, орехов и без сахара, а я хочу шоколадную конфету. «У нас не едят шоколадные конфеты, ты что?!».
Я вспомнила притчу про официантку, которая приняла заказ на хот-дог и картошку фри у мальчика, а он сказал родителям: «Знаете, что? Она думает, что я настоящий».
— Да, это, правда, настоящий ребенок, который рассказал о своих настоящих желаниях. С осознанными детьми бывает очень непросто, особенно если родители на бегу, требуют подчинения, мечтают, чтобы дети были удобными. А дети так больше не хотят.
Фотография Ларисы Ширман, иллюстрации Маши Сергеевой
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Я не могу не отметить стиль и ясность изложения в этой статье. Автор использовал простой и понятный язык, что помогло мне легко усвоить материал. Огромное спасибо за такой доступный подход!
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Я просто восхищен этой статьей! Автор предоставил глубокий анализ темы и подкрепил его примерами и исследованиями. Это помогло мне лучше понять предмет и расширить свои знания. Браво!
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Эта статья является настоящим источником вдохновения и мотивации. Она не только предоставляет информацию, но и стимулирует к дальнейшему изучению темы. Большое спасибо автору за его старания в создании такого мотивирующего контента!
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Я просто восхищен этой статьей! Автор предоставил глубокий анализ темы и подкрепил его примерами и исследованиями. Это помогло мне лучше понять предмет и расширить свои знания. Браво!
Статья представляет интересный взгляд на данную тему и содержит ряд полезной информации. Понравилась аккуратная структура и логическое построение аргументов.
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Автор предоставляет анализ достоинств и недостатков различных подходов к решению проблемы.
Автор старается представить материал нейтрально, что помогает читателям обрести полное понимание обсуждаемой темы.
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Я чувствую, что эта статья является настоящим источником вдохновения. Она предлагает новые идеи и вызывает желание узнать больше. Большое спасибо автору за его творческий и информативный подход!
Эта статья — источник ценной информации! Я оцениваю глубину исследования и разнообразие рассматриваемых аспектов. Она действительно расширила мои знания и помогла мне лучше понять тему. Большое спасибо автору за такую качественную работу!
Я хотел бы поблагодарить автора этой статьи за его основательное исследование и глубокий анализ. Он представил информацию с обширной перспективой и помог мне увидеть рассматриваемую тему с новой стороны. Очень впечатляюще!
Читателям предоставляется возможность самостоятельно сформировать свое мнение на основе представленных фактов.
Информационная статья представляет различные аргументы и контекст в отношении обсуждаемой темы.
Статья содержит информацию, подкрепленную фактами и исследованиями.
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Автор представляет свои идеи объективно и не прибегает к эмоциональным уловкам.
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Статья содержит полезные факты и аргументы, которые помогают разобраться в сложной теме.
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Автор приводит примеры из различных источников, что позволяет получить более полное представление о теме. Статья является нейтральным и информативным ресурсом для тех, кто интересуется данной проблематикой.
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Читателям предоставляется возможность ознакомиться с различными аспектами и сделать собственные выводы.
Я бы хотел отметить качество исследования, проведенного автором этой статьи. Он представил обширный объем информации, подкрепленный надежными источниками. Очевидно, что автор проявил большую ответственность в подготовке этой работы.
Я оцениваю объективность автора и его способность представить информацию без предвзятости и смещений.
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Автор предлагает читателю дополнительные материалы для глубокого изучения темы.
Я просто восхищен этой статьей! Автор предоставил глубокий анализ темы и подкрепил его примерами и исследованиями. Это помогло мне лучше понять предмет и расширить свои знания. Браво!
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Автор предлагает разнообразные точки зрения на проблему, что помогает читателю получить обширное понимание ситуации.
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Я не могу не отметить стиль и ясность изложения в этой статье. Автор использовал простой и понятный язык, что помогло мне легко усвоить материал. Огромное спасибо за такой доступный подход!
Статья содержит информацию, подкрепленную надежными источниками, представленную без предвзятости.
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Автор не старается убедить читателей в определенном мнении, а предоставляет информацию для самостоятельной оценки.
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Статья позволяет получить общую картину по данной теме.
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Автор представляет альтернативные взгляды на проблему, что позволяет получить более полную картину.
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Статья содержит анализ преимуществ и недостатков различных решений, связанных с темой.
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Мне понравилось, как автор представил информацию в этой статье. Я чувствую, что стал более осведомленным о данной теме благодаря четкому изложению и интересным примерам. Безусловно рекомендую ее для прочтения!
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Я впечатлен этой статьей! Она не только информативна, но и вдохновляющая. Мне понравился подход автора к обсуждению темы, и я узнал много нового. Огромное спасибо за такую интересную и полезную статью!
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Эта статья оказалась исключительно информативной и понятной. Автор представил сложные концепции и теории в простой и доступной форме. Я нашел ее очень полезной и вдохновляющей!
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Автор старается оставаться нейтральным, что помогает читателям получить полную картину и рассмотреть разные аспекты темы.
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Эта статья оказалась исключительно информативной и понятной. Автор представил сложные концепции и теории в простой и доступной форме. Я нашел ее очень полезной и вдохновляющей!
With havin so much written content do you ever run into any problems of plagorism or copyright violation? My website has a lot of exclusive content I’ve either created myself or outsourced but it seems a lot of it is popping it up all over the web without my authorization. Do you know any methods to help reduce content from being ripped off? I’d really appreciate it.
Я не могу не отметить качество исследования, представленного в этой статье. Она обогатила мои знания и вдохновила меня на дальнейшее изучение темы. Благодарю автора за его ценный вклад!
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Я оцениваю объективность автора и его способность представить информацию без предвзятости и смещений.
Автор статьи предоставляет информацию, подкрепленную надежными источниками, что делает ее достоверной и нейтральной.
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Я бы хотел выразить свою благодарность автору этой статьи за его профессионализм и преданность точности. Он предоставил достоверные факты и аргументированные выводы, что делает эту статью надежным источником информации.
Автор статьи представляет разнообразные аспекты темы, предоставляя факты и аргументы без выражения собственного мнения.
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