Сегодня в блоге впервые формат открытого разговора. Я нащупала этот формат в Берлине в тот момент, когда поняла, что пересказ будет неправдоподобным, обзор – необъективным, а список – неполным.
Этот разговор c Юлей Вишке – диалог двух мам о материнстве и детстве. Где одна любопытствует, удивляется, хочет узнать побольше, а другая готова делиться и рассказывать истории. Эти две мамы не говорят за всю Россию и всю Германию или за Питер и Берлин, ни к чему не агитируют, просто исследуют «по-другому» друг друга, расставляют свои акценты. И я приглашаю вас стать участниками этого разговора, послушать, задать свои вопросы, поделиться своими мыслями в ответ.
Предыстория
Нам с Юлей повезло на второй минуте знакомства выяснить, что мы родили наших девочек, Ташу и Эмилию, в один день. Благодаря этому мы увиделись не раз и не два, а стали настоящими подругами.
И чем больше я общалась с Юлей, чем дольше жила в Берлине, тем больше понимала, какими разными были у нас эти три года. Рискну предположить, что большинство моих читательниц довольно широко представляет себе контекст беременности, родов и воспитания детей в России, но уверена, что многим будет интересно (как было интересно мне) узнать, как бывает по-другому.
Я совершенно не хочу уходить в черно-белые сравнения, хорошо-плохо, в эти «А у них…/А у нас…» Понятно, что мы живём там, где живём, и стараемся находить плюсы в том, что есть. И я буду рада, если то, что расскажет Юля, не будет воспринято с завистью и злостью, мол, у нас такого никогда не будет. Сама я услышала в этих историях очень много поддержки для себя. Именно в том, что хоть моё окружение и моё государство не дали мне того, что получают мамы в Европе, теперь я больше знаю, как позаботится о себе, о какой помощи можно просить, как самой относиться к себе и своим близким с маленькими детьми. Но мои выводы в конце, а пока познакомимся:
Юля, привет! Я хочу поговорить сегодня про детство и материнство в Берлине, потому что, с одной стороны, я для себя открыла Берлин таким, очень kids friendly. С другой стороны, наш с тобой контекст общения в эти два месяца был во многом продиктован нашими крошками.
Но для начала расскажи немного о себе, о своей истории. Чем ты сейчас занимаешься?
Привет!
Мы хоть и общались с тобой на тему детей, но познакомились-то благодаря тому, что ты блогер. И я тоже. В моём блоге «Берлин со вкусом» я пишу о Берлине с точки зрения ароматной тарелки. И ещё я делаю гастро-исторические прогулки по Берлину, то есть показываю людям Берлин и завожу их в кафе. Потому что, сколько бы я ни рассказывала, все равно люди это забудут. Но они никогда не забудут то, что они ели, то, что они увидели и почувствовали. И я уверена, что, даже вернувшись домой, где-то в своем кафе, вдыхая ароматный чай, человек вспомнит о Берлине, и вспомнит об этом дне, и вспомнит о своей прогулке. Сейчас во время глобализации, когда многие мегаполисы становятся похожи друг на друга, локальная еда является такой зацепкой, которая отправляет человека в настоящий город.
Я всегда любила спрашивать, казалось бы, очевидные и обыденные вещи об истории, о смыслах, которые они таят, о характерах, которые они представляют, о культуре, которую они отражают. Эта любовь к поиску смыслов привела меня в науку. Я доктор философии, и написала монографию о природе воспоминания. А недавно я начала этот свой авторский проект, получается, тоже пишу, преподаю, задаю вопросы.
Почему Берлин? Как ты оказалась в Берлине? И как ты тут так надолго задержалась?
Ну, я же философ. А немецкий – это язык философии, как ни крути. Во всяком случае, пока я училась, это было всегда так. Нужно учить немецкий, потому что, как же? Гегель, Кант, Шлегель, Хайдеггер и иже с ними – они все писали по-немецки. И как-то меня это все захватило, что курсе на третьем я себе дала обещание, что вот и поеду я в страну философов.
Я закончила бакалавриат, потом магистратуру. И стала активно искать: как же, как же я поеду в страну философов?! И я получила грант от Берлинской палаты депутатов на исследование о Берлине. И мое исследование было про русскую философию в Берлине в 20-е гг. ХХ века. Когда из Российской империи эмигрировали в Европу ученые, творческая интеллигенция, аристократы, Берлин был одним из центров научной жизни. И про тот период в литературе было много написано, а про философию вот ничего и нет. Я под это дело получила грант и приехала на целый год в Берлин, благодаря Бердяеву и Набокову, можно сказать. А уже через год у меня был проект диссертации, научный руководитель, и я осталась. И уже 11 лет здесь живу.
Параллельно я познакомилась со своим мужем Мирко, он тоже философ. И уже после того, как я защитилась, мы поженились. И с тех пор, как у меня есть дочь, кажется, я здесь пустила корни. Потому что все равно, пока не было ребенка… мы такие перекати-поле: где мы только ни жили, что только не делали, долго не оформляли отношения. А когда есть ребенок, ты – раз! и укоренился.
Ну, давай про дочь. Вот ты узнала, что беременна. И как ты эту свою беременность проводила, что ты узнала нового, как готовилась к родам? Как вообще здесь происходит этот процесс?
Такой очень объемный вопрос – на 9 месяцев. Я могу что-то упустить. На 40 недель вопрос! Ну, честно говоря, у меня была ничем не примечательная беременность, то есть у меня была нормальная, стандартная, здоровая, счастливая беременность. Узнала, обрадовалась. Это была не первая моя беременность. Но в этот раз я как-то с самого начала знала, что все будет хорошо, и все было хорошо, супер-период в моей жизни.
А ты тогда еще работала где-то?
Да, я работала в университете, наверное, до 37 недели. Дочь родилась в августе, а семестр заканчивается где-то в 20 числах июля. И студенты, наблюдая, спрашивали: «Мы дойдем до конца, или мы раньше закончим?». У меня был курс по трем философам, и я говорила: «Ну, как же? Мы никого не оставим на полдороге. Что вы, что вы! Мы дойдем до ХХ века, а не останемся в ХIХ только из-за того, что я родила». С мужем мы куда-то ездили, и по Берлину много гуляли и что-то постоянно совершали. Но в то же время было какое-то ощущение с самого начала: «Мы теперь втроем». Мы с ней все время разговаривали, мы ей пели на двух языках.
У меня замечательный был гинеколог, который все время говорил: «То, что тебе хорошо, то и ей хорошо. И если нет никаких медицинских предписаний, то нечего париться».
Книжки читала? Выбирала место для родов, какую-то свою акушерку?
Честно говоря, много не читала. Я купила стандартную немецкую толстенную книжку про беременность и роды. И там было про каждую неделю. Каждую неделю что-нибудь описывалось плюс какие-то гимнастические упражнения. И на йогу я ходила практически до самого конца. На обычную, не для беременных. Я просто туда пришла к преподавателю, сказала: «Вот такие вот дела», она мне сказала, чего не делать, и отдельно подходила ко мне, говорила, что делать вместо.
Ещё я прочитала классическую книгу Фредерика Лебойе. Я не знаю, как она по-русски. Я ее тоже не в оригинале, не по-французски читала. По-немецки «Роды без насилия», то есть о естественных родах. А так больше ничего, у меня был настрой на счастье, и я не хотела проблематизировать. И в Германии я не увидела, что есть какая-то проблематизация беременности, нормальный здоровый процесс, никаких противопоказаний особо.
Да, тут беременные вовсю на велосипедах ездят. Один из мифов, которым я удивлялась, что беременным, например, нельзя ездить на велосипеде.
У меня есть знакомая, у которой четверо детей. И в третьем или четвертом случае она сказала няне: «Я пошла», и поехала в роддом на велосипеде. Родила и вернулась.
Ещё, что касается подготовки… В мае мы пошли с мужем на курсы. Большинство курсов здесь для пар. Я не скажу, что что-то новое. Роды, родительство – это такой опыт, по сути, он не передаваем. Но в любом случае, это был приятный процесс в том плане, что вот, были такие же люди, как мы, была очень приятная девочка-акушерка, было осознание того, что ты занимаешься этим вопросом.
А что это были за курсы? Они были при каком-то учреждении?
При самой обычной больнице, от родильного отделения. Они абсолютно, мне кажется, стандартные везде. Никогда не слышала, чтобы курсы чем-то отличались.
Они все в целом заточены на естественность, на минимум вмешательств?
Ну, как…. Про анестезию рассказывают достаточно открыто. Тебе не будут советовать, ни да, ни нет. Это личное решение каждой женщины. Говорят о негативном, говорят о позитивном. Во всяком случае, на этих курсах это было упомянуто, но на это не было никакого заострения. То есть, как пойдет. Ты можешь решить одно, а потом пойдет как-то по-другому. Чтобы быть гибкой и достаточно открытой, чтобы в процессе принимать какие-то новые для себя решения.
А расскажи про разницу между больницей и роддомом.
Ребенок на свет может появиться дома, если это домашние роды, может появиться в родильном отделении клиники или в так называемом роддоме. Родильное отделение в клинике есть при многих больницах, не при всех. У них своя классификацию по уровням. Чем выше уровень, тем больше оснащения для особенных обстоятельств. Например, клиники первого уровня оснащены всем для пренатальной медицины: для детей, которые появляются раньше срока. Я их стараюсь называть просто «появившиеся раньше срока», «ранорождённые», потому что слово «недоношенный» имеет все-таки отпечаток вины, как для матери, так и для ребенка.
В процессе беременности наблюдающий врач всегда смотрит за этим развитием. В большинстве случаев их нет. Нам всегда врачи на всех курсах повторяли, что у большинства всё проходит нормально. И роды – это абсолютно естественный процесс.
А роддома – что-то среднее между клиникой и домом. То есть, если ты хочешь максимально приближенные к дому роды, но дом для тебя по различным причинам не подходит для этого процесса (например, ты переживаешь, диван испачкать, соседей испугать…), то есть вот такие вот роддома. У них в условиях стоит, что до клиники ехать три минуты. И если что-то пойдет не так, они все равно очень близко находятся к клинике. Там как дома: и кровати, и ванны для рожениц. Воспроизведена домашняя обстановка, и не производят никакого медицинского вмешательства. То есть, даже если тебе очень захочется в процессе, ты не получишь анестезии. Получишь массаж, иглоукалывание, но медицинского вмешательства нет вообще. Это их главное отличие.
А ещё в роддоме ты рожаешь, приходишь в себя и топаешь домой. В больнице можно остаться на две ночи. Не дня, а именно ночи.
И в какой-то момент для себя я поняла, что мне симпатичен вариант с роддомом. Обсудила его с моим врачом. Он не нашел никаких препятствий, что бы могло этому помешать.
А вообще многие немки склоняются к этому варианту? В целом, как ты чувствуешь, какое в среднем отношение?
Статистики я не знаю. Но часто прямо на территории клиники, где есть родильное отделение, есть еще и роддом. Но у меня была ситуация, что звонишь в марте, чтобы записаться на август, а у них мест нет до октября. То есть это распространено. И когда я на курсах сказала, что нет, я рожаю не в клинике, а в роддоме, то это не было каким-то фурором. Люди не стали кидать в меня помидорами, говорить: «Она сумасшедшая, посмотри на нее, отговори её!»
(улыбаюсь) Думаю, что даже если бы это были домашние роды, никто бы так не отреагировал.
Да, немцы в этом плане так не реагируют. Единственное, пара человек ко мне подходили и говорили: «Я для себя как-то боюсь исключить вариант анестезии». Ко мне подходили и говорили: «Ты вот молодец! Я вот тоже за естественные, но вот я хочу для себя оставить вот эту лазейку: а вдруг?». Или одна девушка мне сказала: «Нет, я не могу себе анестезию представить». И потом, видишь, роддомов не один и не два, их множество. И тот, который был со мной рядом, ему уже, по-моему, 30 лет. То есть это все давно существует. Я вообще уже настолько долго прожила в Германии, что знаю, если разрешено, значит там уже всё проверено без меня и всё в порядке.
А расскажи, как получилось у тебя? Не всё же пошло по плану?
Сами роды у меня были прекрасные, и хотя не все пошло по плану, и нам пришлось перестраховаться и поехать в клинику, но в конечном итоге, все случилось так, как я хотела — естественные роды с акушеркой и мужем. И это такой очень эзотерический разговор, понятный только мамам, когда ты говоришь: «Вот ребенок родился в больнице, и ты понял, что ребенок хотел в больнице родиться, потому что ему в больнице нужна была помощь». Когда уже Эмилия родилась, мы узнали, что у нее есть небольшая патология, которая заключалась в том, что у нее была расщелина верхнего неба. Говоря обывательским языком, это такая дырка в верхнем небе, и из-за этой дырки получается, что нос и рот внутри сообщаются. То есть в рот попадает воздух из носа, даже если рот закрыт. И получается, что ребенок не может пить молоко из груди матери, потому что когда ребенок присасывается к груди, получается вакуум, а тут вакуума не получается, потому что воздух поступает через нос. То есть, да, мне нужна была больница, мне нужна была медицинская помощь для того, чтобы мне вообще объяснили, что это такое, как с этим жить и что дальше делать, и чем виновата я. Я же тут же почувствовала себя виноватой в этом.
И ты получила поддержку в этот момент? Что излучали окружающие?
Много незнакомых людей ко мне приходили, говорили, что я молодец, что я замечательно родила, что все будет здорово, что у меня супер-ребенок, у нас все будет хорошо, он будет говорить на всех языках, каких я только захочу. И что я ни в чем не виновата, что все это поправимо.
То есть они по своей инициативе это говорили, а не потому, что ты в каждого вцеплялась и просила, чтобы они тебе это сказали?
Нет, нет. Я ушла в себя и не особо понимала, что происходит. Ну, потому что я устала от родов, все новое, и вот тут новый человек, а у него еще такое, чего я вообще не знаю. Я даже не знала, как это по-русски называется. Мы остались на две ночи в больнице. На одну ночь даже мой муж мог остаться.
В больнице была замечательная консультант по грудному вскармливанию. Она мне показала, как я могу кормить своего ребенка своим молоком, не прибегая ни к какой посторонней помощи. Ведь в данном случае важно не только грудное молоко, а важно то, что ребенок сам все равно сосет, потому что когда ребенок сосет, он не только насыщается, он развивает свои мышцы рта и мышцы языка, что в конечном итоге необходимо для развития речевого аппарата.
И первый же день после того, как я родила, ко мне после обеда приехала хирург из другой больницы. Только потом я узнала, что Гюль Шмидт один из виднейших мировых хирургов по таким проблемам. Она, после рабочего дня, после операций, едет через весь город в другую больницу только потому, что там родился еще один ребенок с ее проблемой. Она приезжает ко мне, берет Эмилию, разговаривает с ней, разговаривает со мной. Она обнимает меня и говорит, как это прекрасно, что я этого ребенка родила, рассказывает мне всякие истории. Рассказала про две операции, которые она сделает моей дочери до 10-ого месяца жизни. Вот это была, конечно, очень большая поддержка. Я никогда не думала, что такое возможно. Но это я поняла уже потом. Уже потом я узнала, что она одна из немногих людей в мире, которые умеют делать операции в очень раннем возрасте. Она оперирует детей в три месяца, потому что именно тогда дети начинают произносить первые звуки. И очень важно для речевого аппарата уже закрыть мягкое небо, чтобы дети могли им пользоваться для воспроизведения звуков. Это человек, который любит свою профессию, который в свой отпуск едет в Индию, оперирует детей, не имеющих средств, чтобы у них тоже было все в порядке. Знаешь, это о том, что может быть, по-другому, ты сидишь, думаешь: «Вот, у меня сейчас катастрофа. И я пока не знаю, как я с ней буду жить», а она тебе рассказывает, что в Азии, в какой-то стране, люди с расщелинами являются полубогами, то есть посредниками небес. И она даже ездила в эту страну, была в храме, где скульптуры божеств, и у каждого такой разрез на губе, и через них как бы входит дух небесный… У Эмилии только внутренняя была расщелина, а есть же много детей, у которых челюстная расщелина и губная, и носовая.
А на следующий день приехала еще раз женщина из команды, которая занимается именно душевной поддержкой. И она мне много раз звонила, говорила со мной, говорила с мужем. И потом я еще познакомилась с акушеркой, которая тоже работает с этим хирургом как консультант по грудному вскармливанию таких детей. Замечательная женщина. У нее самой два сына с различными расщелинами родились. И когда первый родился, она много на себе разных экспериментов провела, как максимально близко приблизить к груди вскармливание и так далее. И когда второй такой родился, она решила посвятить себя таким детям и учить других женщин, что всё возможно. Ну и потом моя акушерка ко мне приходила по любому зову. И больше всего поддержки, конечно, от мужа, потому что если бы не он, я никогда бы не научилась действительно просто принимать помощь. Я не знаю, может быть, это какой-то культурный конструкт: ты теперь мать, и теперь только для ребенка. Очень часто я читаю по-русски: «Я могу все сама. И то сама, и сё сама». И ты, когда ты не можешь чего-то сама, ты уже какая-то недомать. Понимаешь, о чем я говорю?
Я прекрасно представляю, о чем ты. Я как раз из этих, которые многое сами, к сожалению. Но зачем, если действительно можно принять помощь?..
В моем случае я действительно не могла обходиться. И первое время у меня любое принятие помощи было связано с большой личной виной, что я не справляюсь, что я вот вся такая недотыкомка. И большое мужу спасибо за то, что он не только все делал вместе со мной, не только весь быт со мной делил, но и постоянно мне повторял, что это нормально, и прекрати вообще брать всё на себя. Не может унести один человек столько.
Да. И эту поддержку, мне кажется, не каждый способен дать, на самом деле.
Тут главное ее взять. А ее не могла взять без какой-то огромной вины.
Оказать такую честную, бескорыстную поддержку, не навязывая еще большую вину, это тоже искусство.
Да. Вот все эти люди мне всегда говорили, что я замечательная, и я могу постараться себя чувствовать хорошо, потому что когда я чувствую себя хорошо, это передается ребенку, и он чувствует себя хорошо. И вот этот посыл был для меня абсолютно новый. Окей, да, у меня первый ребенок, но все равно. Теперь мы возвращаемся к моему биографическому багажу. Я написала диссертацию про воспоминания. Я все думала, как мы можем помнить то, что мы сами не пережили. Это вот этот культурный пласт. И для меня этим культурным пластом был именно пласт наших матерей, бабушек, Отечественной войны, когда все на себе все везут, везут, везут. И, ну, ты же теперь мать! И ты теперь должна, должна, должна, должна. И тут приходят люди и говорят: «Мы тебе поможем». Говорят: «Ты хорошая. Ты можешь плакать. Иди сюда, поплачь со мной. Всё с тобой нормально. В тебе нет ничего плохого».
И это не какие-то там специально обученные люди, психологи. Это среднестатистическая государственная помощь?
Ну, да. Ко мне приходила моя акушерка и говорила: «Ты молодец. И твой ребенок выбрал тебя. Он выбрал тебя, потому что знает, что ты справишься. И ты завтра можешь начать опять выдумывать, что нужно, чтобы дом блестел, чтобы пирог благоухал в духовке… но это никому не нужно».
И я так понимаю, что еще много всякой помощи, поддержки, услуг могут получить молодые мамы?
Познакомившись с другими мамами, поняла, что проблемы есть всякие. С тем же грудным вскармливанием… Это я себе выдумала, что я не могу только потому, что у меня ребенок такой. А оказалось, что это чуть ли не только в сказках бывает, что родился, приложили к груди, а там всё потекло, и он растет не по дням, а по часам.
Есть группы, где вместе кормят, тебе показывают, как и что. Обязательной является послеродовая восстановительная гимнастика. С малышом или без малыша. Есть помощь для малышей, которые кричат.
Оо, да, расскажи про эту скорую помощь для плачущих детей.
(смеётся) Я помню, как ты посмотрела на меня и подумала, что это типа ювенальной юстиции. Конечно, нет. Я не пользовалась, потому что не было необходимости. Но такая помощь очень популяризируется: буквально в каждом печатном издании, в каждом буклете, на курсах – везде упоминается. Если у вас ребенок постоянно кричит, целыми днями, и у вас уже сил никаких нет, то есть такая возможность, пожалуйста, вызывайте такую «скорую». Да и сейчас, я ехала в метро, там социальная реклама: кто-то тряс ребенка, и это было перечеркнуто: «Ради бога, только не трясите». Позвоните, к вам приедут, вам помогут.
И это люди, которые просто могут побыть с ребенком? Понятно, что это не какие-то доктора.
Нет, там никаких успокоительных. Просто ты как человек, который постоянно при ребенке, можешь немножко выдохнуть.
Не говоря уже о медицинской помощи для всех возможных малышей. И в этом плане немцы очень самоорганизованы. Если чего-то еще не существует, значит, обязательно появится какая-нибудь мама, какой-нибудь папа, который организует инициативу. Как раз, когда у меня Эмилия родилась, я читала в журнале «Родители» про маму, которая в каком-то немецком городе организовала инициативу вот с такими детьми, как у меня. Ну, не совсем с такими. У нас был самый редкий случай, из всех встречающихся. Чаще все-таки у детей ращелину видно нв лице, а у моей девочки все было внутри и внешне она ничем от других малышей не отличалась. И родителям с такими детьми тяжело. Везде есть бабушки, которые заглянут в коляску и что-нибудь скажут, что, наверное, мать пила или курила, раз ребенок такой получился.
В журнале я прочитала, что моя «коллега»- мама организовала инициативу, чтобы мамы выходили в парк с такими детьми и сидели на виду, что они тоже часть этого общества.
Я говорю со своей колокольни, а проблемы у малышей всякие есть. И если чего-то нет, то всегда бывают какие-то инициативы, есть какая-то помощь. Есть блогеры, которые открыто рассказывают, что я вот так живу, у моего ребенка такие-то проблемы, я хочу, чтобы он ходил в нормальный садик. Мы ищем садик, который возьмется брать нас такими, какие мы есть.
Я знаю, что есть различные санаторные программы, для матери одной, для матерей с детьми, чтобы мать именно отдохнула от своего именно материнского бытия. Пришла в норму, если были какие-то потрясения, если ей всего было слишком много. Получение этой помощи часто связано с большой бюрократией, но она есть.
Даже помощь по дому можно получить?
И помощь по дому можно получить. У моей знакомой недавно невестка выгорела эмоционально. У нее двое девочек, достаточно больших – 11 и 9 лет. И она уезжала в санаторий без детей, и ее муж в это время получал помощь по дому из больничной кассы, чтобы в отсутствие матери была женская рука. И это они уже, получается, немаленькие. По-моему, прекрасно, когда есть другие варианты, и материнство – это не только долженствование, не только на износ, а что общество это все-таки принимает как работу тоже.
Мы сейчас поговорили про государственные инициативы. А есть же и коммерческие интересные проекты?
Да, например, есть сервис подгузников в аренду. Это многоразовые подгузнки с вкладышами, которые стираются. Я знаю, что в Берлине есть несколько таких фирм, которые занимаются тем, что дают эти подгузники напрокат. У тебя рождается ребенок, ты заключаешь с ними договор. И если тебе эта модель подходит, то раз в неделю, по-моему, у тебя перед дверью появляется герметичное ведро с чистыми подгузниками, которые по специальной технологии откипятили, просушили, прогладили и принесли тебе в этом ведре. Ты их кладешь себе в шкаф, а в ведро складываешь грязные. И потом через неделю выставляешь, а у тебя появляется новое ведро. То есть ты не покупаешь вот эти дорогущие многоразовые подгузники сама, а берешь их в аренду. Для эко-ответственных родителей – прекрасный вариант. Из коммерческих инициатив ты еще знаешь всякие там кафе, площадки…
Да, знаю и обязательно напишу об этом. А что с садиками? Какие есть варианты?
Не уверена даже, что знаю про все варианты. Место в садике положено по закону каждому ребенку с года. И есть большие настоящие сады, а есть так называемая тагесмуттер (мать дня, или дневная мать) – это мини-садик у одной женщины или у двух. На одного воспитателя везде не больше шести человек. Конечно, есть садики всяких разных там методик. Вальдорф, Монтессори, реджио-подход – все это существует. Есть садики при церковных приходах. Есть садики двуязычные. Есть садики, так называемые, включающие в себя (инклюзивные), куда могут пойти дети с какими-либо проблемами в развитии физиологическом, духовном. Мне кажется, сколько есть людей, столько есть вариантов. И критериев столько… Кому-то важно, чтобы при садике была кухня. Кому-то важно, он было био. Третьим важно, чтобы воспитательницы говорили на трех языках и преподавали математику. Вся палитра.
Зарисовки из жизни детского садика, который находится в доме, где мы жили
А русским мамам самое главное, чтобы было тепло (хохочем, много смешных историй с этим!)
Мне кажется, что это тоже какой-то культурный конструкт, потому что, так называемые, русские мамы, мы все, выросли при системе, где отопление включают первого октября и выключают в апреле, не важно, сколько там на улице градусов. Ты просто открываешь форточку. А здесь такого не было и нет. Из разных побуждений – экономических, экологических, физиологических –поддерживают температуру дома 18-20 градусов. Многие немцы отключают отопление ночью. Или, например, в моем доме сейчас центральное отопление, но раньше в доме была котельная на корпус, и начали топить в 4 утра. И когда люди с этим вырастают, температура 18-20 для них комфортная. Это не та температура, к которой мы привыкли. Это не та температура, когда ты в одном подгузнике зимой будешь дома на полу держать ребенка. Но понятно, что это не температура для постоянных заболеваний или чего-то, и это не экономия на детях. Просто кто к чему привык.
Я смотрю, что с одеждой, например, тут не особо парятся, не увидишь нарядных детишек в белоснежных одеждах, всё очень просто и практично. Расскажи про традицию немецких бэби-базаров? Как это бывает? Насколько это распростанено?
Одежда, действительно, не является святыней и фетишем. Особенно у малышей. Потом, уже в школе, начинается погоня за брендами. Но, наверное, это всеобщее подростковое.
А так, да в теплое время года по всему городу на территории садиков, школ и церковных приходов устраиваются по выходным бэби-базары. Родители платят символический взнос за участие, ставят стол, или он предоставляется, и продают опять-таки за символическую цену одежду, игрушки и всякую малышевую утварь. Кто-то неприменно делает стол с домашней выпечкой и напитками. Так что, получается такой большой семейный праздник: дети играют, родители общаются, беременные приобщаются к новому миру и покупают приданое для малышей. Общественность поддерживает такие мероприятия тем, что нередко можно увидеть статьи о том, что поношенная одежда экологичнее и безопаснее для новорожденных (из нее выстирались давно все вредные вещества), лучше отдать, чем засорять планету и т.п.
Жаль, что я так и не успела заглянуть ни на один из таких базарчиков…
Я замечаю, что почти везде в кафе есть детские книги, какой-то уголок или детская комната, высокий стульчик, очень меня умиляют детские лавочки и столики на улице, детские тележки в магазинах, может, у тебя ещё есть примеры?
Ох, мне кажется, что ты всё верно подметила. У нас есть любимая лошадка-качалка, которая стоит у газетного киоска. Лошадка-качалка, ведро с мелками и скамейка: мама может углубится в журнал или газету, пока ребенок рисует и качается.
Боже, как мило! А есть какие-то места, где всё-таки детям не рады?
Есть, но я не сталкивалась сама.
Вот ты рассказывала, что к Мирко на лекции в университет приходят студентки с детьми. Это редкость или это обычное дело?
Могут прийти и в слингах, и с маленькими детьми. Как редкость? Оп! – все забеременели. Оп! – пять лет никто не беременеет. Ну, это не что-то из ряда вон выходящее. И это не так, что раз у тебя маленький ребенок, то ты никуда больше с ним не пойдешь. Это как бы окей.
Это тебе окей, и Мирко окей, или это вообще всем окей? Как ты чувствуешь? Ты как мама можешь поймать какой-то взгляд из серии: «Чё это вы сюда с коляской?». Или не можешь?
Не знаю, мой научный руководитель, с которым я в хороших отношениях, говорит, что ему в какой-то момент было немножко too much, когда не просто в слингах, а когда начинали кормить на лекциях. То есть он никому не говорил открыто, но мне говорил, что он не всегда себя с этим комфортно чувствует. Всегда это зависит от человека. Возможно, есть и такие профессора, которые скажут: «Ко мне вообще ни ногой». Но, во всяком случае, ты можешь всегда пойти и попробовать. То есть это не будет исходить от тебя: «Ой, у меня ребёнок. Я теперь вообще никуда с ним не пойду.
Мы с Ташей в университете, в столовой на 20м этаже
А как ты чувствуешь, чего от тебя ждут, как от мамы? Чистый, причесанный, накормленный ребёнок в хорошем настроении? Манеры? Навыки? Раннее развитие? Ощущаешь ли ты какое-то давление в этом плане?
Разве только от родственников (не мужа, а моих – смеется). Возможно, это пока. В школе все-таки есть нацеленность на результат. Но вот в таком раннем возрасте, если ты достаточно хороший родитель, никому в голову, включая наблюдающих врачей, воспитателей, соседей, не придёт говорить, что пора ходить на горшок, держать карандаш правильно, быть как девочка или говорить на двух-трех языках.
Более того, нет и давления на более субтильном уровне. Меня очень поддерживает постоянное вербальное дружелюбие и одобрение простых, но таких важных вещей. Ведь, когда похвалы нет совсем, всё, что ты делаешь хорошо, воспринимается, как само собой разумеещеся, а твои ошибки или твои мнимые огрехи постоянно вербализуются, гиперболизируются – это же тоже давление. И вот этого нет.
Ты мне рассказывала о своих знакомых лесбиянках, у которых «жизненный союз» и ребёнок. Понятно, что это законно, но насколько это принимается окружением? Говорят ли они открыто о своей жизни, может ли ребёнок в садике спокойно сообщить, что у него две мамы?
Подожди, семья же не с садика началась. Они вместе ходили к гинекологу, вместе ходили на подготовительные к родам курсы, родили вместе. Так что, логично, что и в садике тоже это воспринимается как само собой разумеющееся и никто не строит из себя просто подруг, если у них семья.
Ну и последний мой к тебе вопрос: как ты думаешь, берлинский бэби-бум обусловлен всеми теми вещами, о которых мы поговорили, или они скорее следствие? Или есть что-то ещё, о чём я не знаю?
Ха-ха, бэби-бум, честно, я не знаю. Я вот очень хотела ребенка, родила и увидела, что детей вокруг, оказывается, много. И может, кто-то и выстраивал сначала инфраструктуру, чтобы потом родить или даже специально переехал в Берлин, потому что здесь есть такая детская инфраструктура. Я же выросла в другое время в другой стране и оценила все, что здесь есть для детей и родителей только, когда сама стала мамой.
Спасибо тебе, что согласилась на этот большущий разговор! Ты очень вдохновляешь меня, как мама.
Тебе спасибо, столько ты расшевелила мыслей. Это же вообще не моя профессиональная деятельность, если вообще можно быть мамой-не-профессионалом :)
Видишь, я просто мама, не организую никаких мама-клубов, не хожу на митинги, если меня не пустят в кафе с коляской, не буду вступать в совет активисток садика и школы. Для меня главное – создавать гармоничное бытие вместе. Не я-для-кого-то, не кто-то-для-меня, а просто вместе.
Ну что, кому не так повезло, как берлинкам? Не завидуете? Я вот и да, и нет. Я рада, что узнала всё это. Часы наших разговоров с Юлей очень поддержали меня психологически. От неё веет таким спокойствием и уверенностью, что она «достаточно хорошая мама», что, надеюсь, вам тоже передастся. А ещё предлагаю подумать, как в наших, местами стеснённых, российских реалиях мы можем поддержать себя сами?
Может, договориться с парой близких подруг, что если ваш ребёнок будет плакать целыми днями, вы сможете, не доходя до ручки, позвонить им и обратиться за «скорой помощью». Или поискать какие-то образовательные программы, куда вас пустят с ребёнком? Или начать говорить о тех изменениях, которые не кажутся вам сложными? Скоро я напишу пост с идеями детских проектов, которые я подсмотрела в Берлине. Может, найдутся среди вас единомышленники, да и замутим что-нибудь!
Как вам наш разговор? Остались у вас вопросы к Юле? Ко мне? Напишите в комментариях, если вам было интересно! Дополняйте, если знаете больше! Мы будем только рады.
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