«Это нормально» называется телеграм-канал Арины Винтовкиной. И, пожалуй, это слова, которые ёмко отражают её позицию. Я была давно подписана на Арину в инстаграме, и из всех секс-блогерок люблю её больше всех. За искренность, психологичность и за вот эту нормализацию темы секса, разговоров о сексе, полиамории, разности предпочтений и многого другого.
В октябре Арина приезжала в Петербург с выступлением, а потом нам удалось чудесно пообщаться за обедом в Мечтателях.
Впервые опубликовано в журнале Мамин-Папин, ноябрь 2018
Ты сексолог, секс-блогер, полиаморка, бисексуалка, мама и много ещё ролей можно назвать. Если не расчленять тебя на роли, как это — быть Ариной Винтовкиной?
— В душе я секс-просветитель. Мне важно говорить, что мир гораздо более разнообразен, чем люди привыкли думать. И мир секса гораздо более вариативен, чем нам это транслируется. Понятие нормы включает в себя такое невероятное количество вещей, на которых у нас негласно стоит гриф «только для извращенцев».
Для меня это история не про эпатаж, а про нормализацию. Я сама выгляжу как «социальный человек», образованный, здравомыслящий, не фрик, не маргинал, не выкатываю грудь на стол, не прихожу на встречу по работе в ошейнике. Для аудитории, напряжённой в плане секса, это важно. Так люди начинают догадываться, что я обычный, нормальный человек, как они. Только у меня есть дополнительная опция: говорить о том, о чём все остальные стараются не говорить.
Отличает меня от большинства, — единственное, что приходит в голову, — это то, что по работе я тестирую приличное количество секс-игрушек. Пришла к этому через личный интерес. Лет десять назад в попытке выбрать секс-игрушку я потерялась в туманных описаниях на сайтах, заплутала во всех этих адских метафорах. Очень остро ощущалась нехватка обзоров, написанных людьми для людей. Чем я сейчас в том числе и занимаюсь: делаю тест-драйвы, которые мне самой интересно читать.
Тема секса очень интегрирована в твой повседневный контекст. Что это тебе даёт? Что теряют люди, у которых этот контекст уже?
— Для меня секс — это не про гениталии, не про разрядку, не про работу тела. Это линза, через которую я смотрю на мир. Речь не идёт о том, что у меня какой-то огненный темперамент. У меня аппетиты вполне стандартные, мне как такового секса нужно 2-3 раза в неделю максимум. Зато есть ощущение, что, разбирая эту тему, внутреннее устройство людей можно понять гораздо лучше.
У человека, который не исследует себя в этой области, спектр реакций и ощущений от секса достаточно узок. Хотя не только от секса, но и от жизни в целом. Умение нащупать собственные желания, идентифицировать их, донести до других людей, способность чувствовать полутона и улавливать что-то очень тонкое — это вообще чертовски нужная опция не только в постели.
Как постепенно снимать это напряжение, чувствовать больше свободы?
— Люди обычно прибегают к какой-то литературе, начинают что-то искать в тот момент, когда у них возникает проблема. И это изначально для них окрашивает данную тему в тяжеляковые, негативные тона.
Например, есть люди, которые идут в секс-шоп за эрекционным кольцом, когда у мужчины проблема с эрекцией. И есть те, кто прочитали тест-драйв на вакуумный стимулятор и думают: «Господи, что же это за такой космический куннилингус, интересно попробовать». Один идёт в секс-шоп, как в аптеку, а другой — за любопытством. И траектория развития событий будет совершенно разная. И отношение к этим своим «приключениям» тоже.
Тело не работает без головы, и люди, как правило, не решают свои проблемы, если пытаются решить их на уровне гениталий. Как сделать так, чтоб возбуждаться быстрее?! Девушке кажется, что достаточно намазаться каким-то кремом, и она станет мультиоргазмичной. Но в твой оргазм ты включена вся: что у тебя было сегодня днём, что чувствуешь к партнёру, какой последний фильм ты посмотрела, с чем у тебя проассоциировалась музыка, которая играла, чувствуешь ли ты себя особенной в этом освещении. Это многофакторная история, и если решать её кремом, от которого набухнет клитор, то ничего не будет, никаких чудес.
Твоей дочери сейчас 6 лет, что она знает о теле и сексе?
— Здесь я ориентируюсь на свой внутренний камертон, когда, что и в каких фразах нужно говорить, и на её интерес. Она знает, что есть интимные места. «Интимные» обозначают какую-то приватность. Моя задача ей объяснить, что если мы в гостях или к нам кто-то пришёл, то трогать себя в интимных местах не стоит. А в приватной обстановке она вольна исследовать себя и собственное тело. Я хорошо понимаю, как «выговоры про мастурбацию» сказываются на психике человека и на его отношениях с собственным телом.
Она знает взрослые названия всех частей тела. Больше всего её веселит слово «анус». Когда я произносила слово «вульва», она мне сказала, что так могли бы звать принцессу. У ребёнка это слово ничем не отягощено. Она знает, каким образом появляются дети, что такое секс, в таких достаточно примитивных понятиях, что это не чудо, не аист.
Я пока не рассказывала ей про однополые отношения, потому что у нас есть «пакт» с бабушкой. Когда дочь родилась, бабушка стала очень религиозным человеком. И православные догматы для неё сейчас довольно сильны. Поэтому мы с ней договорились так: бабушка не прививает моей дочери понятия о грехе и блуде (про «добро» и «зло» говорится в светских понятиях), а я пока не рассказываю об однополых отношениях. Но при этом я оставила себе лазеечку. Как только вопрос от дочери поступит, я на него честно отвечу.
А есть у тебя ощущение неловкости, когда ты с дочкой что-то такое обсуждаешь?
— Безусловно, есть. Неловкость у меня от того, что рассказанное не входит так легко и просто, как мне бы того хотелось. Вот я ей донесла, как называются половые органы, она мне сказала, какие это красивые, хорошие слова и начала их употреблять. Увы, так не получается. Неловкость в том, что по-прежнему слово «пися» ей роднее, чем слово «вульва». В детском саду говорят «пися». Бабушка говорит «пися». А мама получается в меньшинстве.
А может, например, она случайно найти секс-игрушку, на которую ты делаешь обзор?
— У нас отдельная взрослая комната, а у дочки — своя. С самого её рождения я придерживалась принципиальной позиции — никакого совместного сна. Когда она была младенцем, я могла часами укачивать её, сидя у неё в комнате (хотя, конечно, проще было бы взять к себе в кровать). Мне важно было привить ощущение личного пространства.
И сейчас у неё есть опция — закрыть дверь в свою комнату и сказать: «Я хочу побыть одна». И никто туда не ломится, даже если что-то очень надо. А есть взрослая комната, и она не хозяйничает там без спроса, а уточняет: «Мама, можно я поиграю у вас, попрыгаю на кровати?»
Когда она видит коробку с чем-то ярким, которую я приношу домой, она может спросить: «Что это?» Ответ: «Это массажёр, он для взрослых» — её более чем устраивает. Если бы я впадала в панику от мысли, что она увидит секс-игрушку, она бы, как пить дать, считала моё напряжение и начала бы на них «охотиться». Но чем спокойнее я реагирую, тем меньше интереса у неё это вызывает.
Ты как-то писала, что люди часто относятся к отношениям, как к военным действиям или приручению диких зверей. Расскажи, как устроены ваши, не завоевательные, отношения?
— Это знакомство. Постепенное и непрекращающееся. Ты всегда пытаешься понять, из чего строится самоощущение и сексуальное, и человеческое того, кто перед тобой. Нет человека с неотягчённой сексуальностью. И эти мины могут лежать в совершенно неожиданных местах, даже у самого оргазмичного, самого раскрепощённого, самого знающего своё тело человека.
Я с самого первого дня стараюсь говорить о сексе. В контексте своей работы, своего интереса, кидать ссылки, статьи. Делать эти разговоры такими же обычными, как разговоры о еде или планах на вечер. Это мне позволяет нащупать заминированные места в партнёре гораздо быстрее и не наступить на них.
Такое непросто реализовать, когда люди десять лет вместе, и из них все десять лет не разговаривают о сексе. Это более кропотливая работа, возможно, для семейной терапии. А когда люди только начинают встречаться, не обязательно обсуждать что-то конкретное, типа: «А ты какой секс мечтал бы попробовать?» Пусть сначала это будет не в практической плоскости, а в теоретическо-наслажденческой. Вот вам приятно обсудить кино, пусть вам будет так же приятно обсудить что-то связанное с сексом.
Мне очень близка твоя фраза: «В отношениях работает только то, о чём вы договорились». Расскажи, о чём вы договорились в вашей полиаморной семье?
— Когда мы интегрировали идею с полиаморией в нашу жизнь, это было ещё одно доказательство того, что я не ошиблась в выборе партнёра (а мы с мужем вместе более десяти лет). Каждый из нас сыграл свою партию. Я была буфером, не утомляющимся что-то объяснять и проговаривать. Муж оказался в нужной степени комперсивен. Его любовь очень отдающая, он радуется возможности приумножать радость в жизни. Любимая смогла договориться с собой на тему «собственнических инстинктов» и принять меня, формально несвободную.
Мне было важно, чтобы контакт между нами тремя получился с самого начала. Ещё до того, как у нас начались какие-то отношения с любимой, она приехала к нам в гости, мы сидели втроём и разговаривали. Каждый мог выйти и сказать: «Я не буду участвовать в этом шапито!» или «Нет, я не готов». Это очень поступательное движение со всех сторон. На каждой точке было ощущение, что любой из нас имеет право отказаться.
Полиамория научила меня очень остро жить в моменте. Это важно в контексте любых отношений. Но поскольку здесь участников больше и градус ответственности увеличился, поэтому есть концентрация на моменте: какой у нас у всех текущий статус? Кто в чём нуждается? Кто чего хочет? Переменчивость жизни, флюидность сексуальности, гибкость отношений — всё это ощущается гораздо острее.
Часто сталкиваешься с непониманием?
— Конечно, случается. Есть два самых популярных вопроса. Первый: «А как же стыд?» Как-то человек встал после моего выступления на конференции и спросил: «Арина, а как же стыд?» Что он имел в виду?! Ему стыдно слушать про секс или стыдно за меня?
Второй: «А как же дети?» Меня всегда очень удивляет, а причём тут дети? Это примерно как на фразу «Мы с мужем практикуем анальный секс» спросить: «А как же дети?»
Многим кажется, что присутствие однополого партнёра, секс-игрушек, вечеринок, экспериментов — каким-то образом сказывается на ребёнке. Но никто же не говорит: «Дети, мы пошли на секс-вечеринку. А вот видео о том, что мы там делали».
Наши дети погружены в нашу жизнь ровно настолько же, насколько дети любых родителей, которые адекватно фильтруют информацию для ребёнка. Взрослый человек — на то и взрослый, чтобы осознавать свою ответственность. А я считаю себя во всех смыслах взрослым человеком. И не допускаю ситуаций, когда ребёнок оказывался бы вовлечён в мою «взрослую» жизнь «случайно» или потому что «…ну так вышло».
Что до полиаморной ветки моей жизни, мы не живём все вместе. Поэтому жизнь нашей дочери не отягчена какими-то многозначностями. В её картине мира есть семья — это мама и папа. А моя любимая для неё — близкий друг семьи и её близкий друг. По крайней мере, сейчас это выглядит и организовано именно так.
Фотографии Ларисы Ширман
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